Marco / KittSuperCar a Recaster? You decide....

[RafaelLOJ]

Things that make you go, Hmmmmm…

“Kitt SuperCar – Marco Valleggi. The front bumper digital clone
It all starts from the desire to have the best possible front bumper for my replicas. Giving space to all my experience (from 1987) in the field of computer graphics and CAD design, today we are talking about digitally clone, with CGI techniques applied to CAD design, the parts used in the show. It is not science fiction, in fact I use these techniques on a daily basis to reproduce with 3D animations a variety of products.”

To “have”, not make or create, “the best possible front bumper”…
“Computer Graphics, CAD Design”, yes, amazing website and digital art…
“Digitally clone” ??? Not so much…

Let’s examine the “digitally clone” and note the errors it has
as opposed to the finished bumper that Billy, uh, I mean Marco, “have”…



A lot of straight / flat lines in the “digitally clone”. The Shelf where the scanner sits… Flat… The top part of the nose, if you were to run your finger from the scanner tray to the front of the tip of the nose… flat. Fog light openings are very straight... But Billy's and Marco's final, they have a slight curve to them... And OMG, the whole nose it too long! It looks like the “shark” nose made by another vendor!



More angle and dimension errors with the “digitally clone”…
Below is Marco’s version, and a picture of Billy’s below it…
Note how different the angles are from the tip of the nose, to the driver’s fender.
Much sharper angle on Marco’s (incorrect).
Also notice, how much longer (from front to back” the “digitally clone” is than Billy’s…
Aspect Ratios have not been changed… actual screen grabs…



I have seen & owned many noses & Billy’s is the shortest & most accurate.
Most of them (excluding 4th season recasts) are too long, front to back.



3 more errors in the “digitally clone”…
1st, the “crown” of the nose… again, flat lines / angles. This is the exact way the 4th season recast nose is, but it is incorrect for 1st – 3rd season. The “digitally clone” has it, but not the finished product…. ??? It has a rounded angle, just like Billy’s…

4th season nose pic below for reference…


Billy's nose pictured below... see, it's not a line... it's rounded...
Unlike the 3D "digitally clone" & 4th season nose pictured above, but the way Billy created it and the way Marco's copy ended up...



2nd, The very bottom lip on Marco’s “digitally clone” has a lip! It even wraps around the side! A vertical lip… See highlighted red lines…
This is incorrect, not seen in “Marco’s” final nose, nor Billy’s…
There is no lip, it’s a smooth curve…




3rd, Notice the bottom lip again… Very symmetrical. More directly, notice the thickness of the front most tip and the thickness as it goes out towards the fenders… Marco’s “digitally clone”, pretty much a straight line. But his finished product & Billy’s, It tapers off / gets smaller as it goes towards the fenders…



As you look at more pictures of Billy’s nose & Marco’s copy, you will notice that there isn’t a straight line anywhere… the blackouts is about it… There are subtle curves and angles all over it… none seen on the “digitally clone”, but seen on Billy’s and Marco’s final noses…

As you can see, the “digitally clone” is full of errors… that don’t appear in Marco’s final nose (that looks just like Billy’s). Why create something with so many errors to then have to fix them?

“The digital mold does coincide, also in this non definite stage, in an optimal way. Of course I will not reveal the whole process of this new front bumper, and will not post images of the final 3D mold.” By Marco Valleggi.

Because there were no “final 3d molds”….

“The new front bumper was printed in a solid material into several parts, carved from solid blocks with CNC machines directed by the 3D mold I made.” By Marco Valleggi.

BS. The finished product, as shown above, is far from the “digitally clone”…

The picture of the CNC machine Marco has on his website….



Great picture…
but this was also lifted from a Wikipedia webpage talking about Milling machines…
Link is here, it’s down near the bottom right…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_%28machining%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As noted… there are no pictures from “digitally clone” pieces to actually building or sculpting a bumper, Marco goes from drawing to recast…

Marco throws in this picture on his website…



This also does not look like the final product. It looks like Joao’s nose…
Note the thickness of the lower lip as it goes towards the fender…
Notice Marco’s and Joao’s have deformities, like pieces missing, Marco’s passenger side of crown, and clearly seen on Joao’s in the same area on the driver’s side… Also, if you were making a perfect 3D replica, why would you not have the
CNC machine cut out the fog light opening?
Is this 5 axis CNC milling? I think not…

Here are pics from Joao…



Then Marco, after CGI, goes directly to a fiberglass nose, on the car…
But Wait!
Why are the blackout areas orange and the rest of the nose not?



Simple! Because that was the only part slightly modified from Billy’s nose….
The “orange” is gel coat, used to make a fiberglass mold…
Here you can actually see the orange gel coat on Marco’s mold!



And now to some finished shots / comparisons…

Again, keep in mind, the “digitally clone” had numerous errors
that do not appear in Marco’s final nose…
You never saw any “pieces”, or putting together, or sculpting…
Marco went directly from digital pictures to fiberglass.

Billy has pictures of him actually sculpting it on the car.

Marco’s bumper (looks nothing like “digitally clone”…)



Billy’s Bumper (wow, it looks just like Marco’s!) Or vice versa..



Clearly note that Marco’s final bumper doesn’t have a lip on the bottom lip, as seen in the 3D “digitally clone”. Also note how the bottom lip tapers off towards the fenders, which his 3D “digitally clone” didn’t do either. Marco’s final bumper has the same taper and exact curve on the bottom lip that Billy’s has, but the 3D “digitally clone” digitally clone didn’t have either….

Marco…


Billy….


Marco’s…



Billy’s…



Marco…


Billy



Marco…



Billy…



Marco….



Billy’s…



So… Marco not a recaster….. ???



Marco… show us your proof ???

ALL PICTURES ARE AVAILABLE ONLINE AT
http://WWW.KITTSUPERCAR.COM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; & GOOGLE IMAGES.
PICTURE RATIOS WERE NOT ALTERED.
SOME PICTURES WERE CROPPED.
MANY PICTURES HAD BRIGHTNESS / CONTRAST ADJUSTED
TO BETTER SEE THE LINES & DETAILS.

[RafaelLOJ]

More picture comparisons can be found here...

http://www.knightriderrevolution.com/fo ... ?f=3&t=825" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KentuckyKITT]

In all the years I've been in this hobby, I could always tell bumpers apart (or any fiberglass part for that matter). I could usually spot and name a vendor's bumper without hesitation. These days? Not so much. There are so many out there now, that I have trouble knowing who made what anymore. I can't tell any difference in those two bumpers at all in the pictures other than some subtle blackout differences. I would have to purchase both of them, one from each vendor to be 100% positive. If I had them both side by side off of a car, that would be the only way to know if they are exactly the same. One thing I do know is that if one molds an existing fiberglass part, some dimension is lost, not much, but some. Therefore, if this is Knight Design's bumper that has been molded, then side by side, one of them would be slightly shorter, slightly narrower, and slightly less tall. You would need to measure in millimeters, but there would be a difference.

I generally don't buy for looks or accuracy claims alone, I buy for quality. What I do know is that Knight Designs doesn't release a part until it is perfect. I own some Knight Design products and in the 14 years I've been doing this and all that I've seen and owned, they are the best. I honestly don't know how Billy makes any profit with all of the time he spends on each part. No vendor in this hobby has ever achieved that level of craftsmanship and they never will. There is not now, nor will there ever be a vendor as good as Billy Gunter. So, even if those two bumpers are the same, they're really not. I personally would only buy it from Billy because I know it would be perfect.

It should be known that I'm not compensated for anything said here. I simply speak from experience. It should be known that the only way to judge a product is to have it in your hands. There is simply no other way.

[RafaelLOJ]

Agreed... the 2 final products are identical...
Can you tell a difference between the 3d model and the final product?

Marco has stated he will not show the pieces he created or the put together final piece... but he has this bumper now to sell... which looks nothing like the 3d model he touts as "digitally clone".... but looks identical to Billy's...

And he won't show it... Why hide it?

[KentuckyKITT]

Being as I am an expert 3D modeler and CAD drafter working on complex natural gas pipeline systems and instrumentation, I can say for certain that the bumper shown in photos is definitely not what was initially modeled. Now, that doesn't mean that changes weren't made in the field once a person starts putting the components together. Happens all of the time. I send out a drawing set for construction and they might decide they can't install what they initially thought or they may need to reroute something or use a different component altogether. Then, the drawings are sent back to me for as-building where I then look at photos and documentation and often visit sites to update the drawings to reflect "as-installed."

With that being said, just going by the photos of that finished bumper, I would have to completely re-do that model and would most likely start from scratch as there is no similarity of what was installed in the field based on the initial model. I do this for a living and I'm very good at it. This is like comparing a 26" Weld-End Cameron Ball Valve with Shafer Operator to a 26" Raised Face Cameron Ball Valve with a Becker Operator. Completely different components in both features and appearance. Knowing the difference is crucial.

[RafaelLOJ]

Another point I made... the 3D model has so many errors, a final CNC build would be worthless.... Its not just the errors, but also that the 3D model looks nothing like the final product...

[RafaelLOJ]

The proof is in all the pictures (Marco's own!)...
How do you make a 3D Model of this and end up with the bottom picture?
The hood & headlights would not line up... the nose would be sticking out past the car not connected.
And the nose would be too long...
So after hours of 3D modeling, CNC building, you take a hacksaw / sledge hammer and redo it?

Again... please prove me wrong...

[RafaelLOJ]

So the photo of Kitt with the 3D nose has, as you say, "optics and distance are compensated for.." and it fits?

Let's shed some light on it... I brightened up the picture...
Problems...
It's too wide, left to right... hard to see on left side, but look at right edge...
On the outer edges, the blackout lines do not line up with the hood / fender lines...
They are off by a lot...
You can still see Kitt's actual nose at the bottom left edge, so it doesn't fit...
The scanner opening tapers on both ends ???
The crown still has straight angles, not rounded, like the final product...
And the lower lip still has that horizontal lip... which is not in the final product...



We could debate endlessly on this...

Basically a 3D model only visible in 2d was sized and angled an pasted on top of a 2D picture... That doesn't mean "it fits"...

Pictures can be manipulated... and that's the rub... you go from pictures of a 3D model that look nothing like the final product... & the final product looks just like Billy's....

No in between proof... is that too much to ask?

[RafaelLOJ]

Well... topic locked at the foundation...

3 people are privy to seeing some real magic happen...
A 3d Model that looks nothing like the final product... & the final product that looks exactly like Billy's...
Moving forward...



What is that lip at the bottom... it's not any other part of the bumper... ??
Pay attention to the right edge of the lower lip... see all those straight lines?
The one with the flat horizontal lip, that even the optically & distance corrected preview had, that the final model doesn't have...
Please review the other 3d Models in this post at that lower lip, far edges...
A lot of flat lines...

Now let's look at the final product...
Notice on the ends of the front lip, they taper, and a round curve begins to appear, very prominent near the ends...
Marco / Billy's both have it...
3d model... nope... it has that horizontal lip and no curves or angles at all...
These features are not on ANY OF THE 3D MODELS....
Again, please review the other Marco's own 3d Models in this post...
But they magically appear on the final...

Top Marco's, then Billy's...



Top Marco's, then Billy's...



Even in the "white" nose Marco shows a picture of as a hard copy of his model, which I think is an old Joao picture (a nose he had on his Version 1 and 2 Kitt), you cannot see those features...

You don't want to show proof, but gladly show 3d pictures & then a not matching the 3d model "digitally clone" finished bumper... Hmmm...

Again... Please prove us wrong...

[RafaelLOJ]

& moving forward...
When I showed the picture of the 3d model nose and the actual one from above, angles between the 2 were off BY A LOT and it was also too long (front to back)...
Then I was shown this...



Science! Yes... viewing it STRAIGHT or through a curved lens (uh, like our eyes) shows a different image...
And you can see, the cars do look different... bumpers front and back, see different stuff... some stuff looks bigger / smaller.... But the overall size, front to back & side to side, uh is identical...

But how about the angles... look at the curve & angle of the windows, hood lines, white stripe... a tad different... but angles are almost identical to each other....
So while that principal surely exists, the extreme angle difference in the 3d model to the final just adds more doubt...



So let's keep playing with toys... next slide please!



Here is the same car... different angle... the point of this exercise is to see an object's shape on a horizon, where no depth, angles, orthographic principles will have any effect, because we're not flying over it, we are on the ground, looking and seeing the outline of an object on that ground....

Let's put it in George Carlin terms... "It's F'n there, see it?"
I'll draw a more simplistic drawing... a round mountain on the horizon...



You don't need your 3D glasses boys and girls, see the car & the mountain have lines and curves that make up the outline!

Let's examine a close up of Marco's 3d Model....



Many flat areas that should be rounded... He even drew in with red Paint (oh, look this should be rounded!) But it's not... Maybe he didn't know how to make a curve with the program... and notice all the other "flat" parts (uh, the the far right edge of the nose, which is suppose to have a slight rounded edge, but it's flat)... and notice that horizontal lip on the front lower lip that is in all his 3d models, but not the final product...

And I still don't see that curve on the end of the lower lip... the one that as the lower lip tapers to the end, begins to round out from the bottom, not seen on any 3d model, but seen in final one....
And the final one, has no horizontal edge on the lower lip... it's rounded too...



And another example from Marco... He drew (with blue paint, couldn't find the red again) that "oh snap, this straight edge, yeah, that's gonna be rounded... not like the 3d model... cuz I can't find the curve function... I'll just do redo all the work after spending thousands to CNC the pieces on wikipedia....



Again... no where an any 3d model he's shown as "proof" are those crown lines anything more than just that....
But except on the final... where they are rounded... just like Billys....

Please prove us wrong.....

[RafaelLOJ]

Marco's Final... no lower horizontal lip... oh look, tapers and curves... unlike his 3d digitally clone!

[RafaelLOJ]

3d model... full of lines... finish model curvy & sexy!

Let's examine this one...



Disregard that flat horizontal lip on the bottom that wraps around to the side.. or the lack of any curve below that lip... Can't say it's orthographic stuff, it's got a straight up shadow underneath and no curve...

But do notice the little black squares at the bottom of each fog light... both are same size (I copied and pasted like Marco!)
Notice how the one closest to the middle of the nose fits between the bottom of the fog light opening and where the lip starts...
Notice how the once closest to the end of the nose doesn't quite fit, the square is too big...
You could attest this to 2 factors... The end of the nose (as compared to the middle) is visually further away.... uh, depth...
The other factor... the opening of the fog lights is lower and closer to the lower lip than the middle end / side is...
A little of both ???
Again, please review all of the 3d models...

Remember... same size squares...

Now, notice the top of the fog light openings...
I didn't put squares here, because its clearly visible....
Near the middle of the nose, top of fog light opening and above... is small... Not a lot of surface there...
But as you move our to the end of the nose... at the end of the fog light opening, go up, and it's got more space as it goes up...
It's taller (top to bottom) as opposed to the middle end...

Now let's look at Marco's final bumper...



The bottom of the fog light opening is the exactly the opposite...
The end of the bumper (instead of being lower as shown in his model) is actually visibly higher up on the face of the bumper...
Again... same size squares...

And notice the top of the fog light openings... instead of looking like the 3D model, where there is a lot of space on the end, above the fog light opening, it's rather uniform spacing from middle to end...
A smooth curve all the way along.... Not at all like the 3D Digitally Clone model...

Marco's again...



Again... build a "3D Digitally clone" model... pay thousands to CNC pieces... Put them together & then fix the whole thing...
Just fixing the fog light openings alone by hand would be a lot of work... (not to mention, uh, everything else that needs to be fixed)

Please prove us wrong...

[RafaelLOJ]

For MORE pictures and proof.... See other thread below...

http://www.knightriderrevolution.com/fo ... ?f=3&t=827" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure Billy won't mind

Rafael

[spyhunter2k]

Yes the Foundation has finally sunk to this low—supporting an OBVIOUS recaster. In a pretty pathetic attempt to cover themselves, they REDEFINED what they considered a recaster to be, now stating it's someone that takes someone else's work and remolds it without making any alteration. They obviously realized that anyone with eyes and a brain could realize that Marco had copied Billy's nose.

So...since Marco slightly altered the turn signals on Billy's nose, voila, according to the Foundation he didn't recast according to their NEW definition. And now, miracle of miracles, one of the board moderators can now have access to the most accurate nose around, Billy's, that they otherwise wouldn't since the same moderator had banned Billy when he spoke up about the shady dealings at the website.

If anyone has any facts to the contrary, please present them. I will be the first to eat humble pie if Marco presents in-progress pics of him actually sculpting the nose he sells. But for some strange reason he refuses to, hmmm...

The sad thing is that the Foundation was once the champion of the original sculptors, and quickly weeded out any recasters. Now it seems greed has gotten in the way of ethics. They banned the guy who makes the best stuff simply because he spoke up, then realized "crap, he makes the most accurate-looking stuff," so they do an end-around by endorsing a recaster of his parts so they can still get access to the his designs. I don't know of any other word than "pathetic."

[RafaelLOJ]

"If anyone has any facts to the contrary, please present them. I will be the first to eat humble pie if Marco presents in-progress pics of him actually sculpting the nose he sells. But for some strange reason he refuses to, hmmm..."

Amen... 3D drawings that look NOTHING like the finished product... saying custom CNC pieces were made, but never shown, but a CNC machine from Wikepidia was used... then a picture of said CNC pieces in a foam sculpture...
Nothing adds up...

I've also stated... Prove us wrong...
Crickets.....

[OKC KNIGHT]

Met Marco in Vegas this year

Introduced myself said nice things about his car,Lets just say,He wasn't very nice

Dave

[RafaelLOJ]

Oh the Foundation.....

As of today, in their General board, the first 20 or so messages have 0, or 1, or 2 or 3 replies...
Including January updates (in mid February) and Christmas wishes (in mid February)....

And oh, there is one message with 27 replies... That started in 2007, uh 8 years ago?
But the last 2 replies are from Rob Louisell and Bo McDonald....

Bo states,
"We are SO grateful NBCUniversal so FREELY stepped up to the plate to license our event and help us recognize special needs children and have given us so much assistance."

Our event? The one you got mad at Paul Casey for a few years ago and denounced him?
Yes, special needs children. How wonderful. Hope they grow up loving Knight Rider.
Then they can come on down to the Foundation so you can be made fun of publicly.

I'm referring to them, uh, yours, uh, The Foundation making fun of me and my blindness...
I'd show a link, but they deleted that one too...

Here's your sign....

[Michael Pajaro]

I apologize, I should have spoken up in this thread earlier.

In general, I don't think it's appropriate to bring conflicts with other groups to other boards. Different boards have different policies about it and thats fine. As for here, we really try to minimize this kind of complaining and name-calling.

Whatever history the Foundation may or may not have with Paul Casey or Las Vegas Car Stars is between them. As of today, they are working together. Knight Rider Online also supports the event. If you have issues with any of the parities involved, I encourage you to contact them privately. Please also feel free to send me or another admin a private message as well if you have any questions.

[RafaelLOJ]

Michael, my apologies, you are right... I have always been treated with respect on this board.
Besides my last post here concerning the Foundation, the previous posts in this thread was to bring up a discussion.
One that got locked / erased and me banned from the Foundation... There is another board where this thread is and it's basically an open invitation to Marco to shed some light on the subject... which he hasn't... on any board.

I will respect your wishes... and thank you for letting this be an open / respected place.

Rafael

[spyhunter2k]

Michael, there was a thread here specifically about the great new parts being offered by Marco. Since it was obvious to those familiar with the nose shapes of the various vendors that Marco had recasted his nose, and once upon a time everyone agreed that this was a bad thing, the thread seemed useful for those wanting to purchase replica parts from reputable vendors who did their own work instead of copying others.

That said, times have changed. Sadly, the fact that a certain vendor's part is a recast from another vendor just doesn't bother a lot of folks. The effect of the Napster/bittorrent generation I suppose, who all think that if it can be copied, it should be copied, and no ethical problem exists if this happens.

Mention of the Foundation web board happened because they originally championed the cause of the original part vendor and sculptor, and claimed to deplore recasters, until it became inconvenient to continue with this original policy, whereby they changed their rules to allow their own moderators to purchase from an obvious recaster.

I understand that you don't want this site to be dragged down by negativity and conflicts, but I for one just had a hard time seeing a new Knight Rider parts vendor come on the scene with obviously-copied parts, and then instead of being called out by the biggest replica board, embraced by them because they had banned the original sculptor over his daring to disagree with them, and so couldn't keep face if they ordered his parts.

It's just a sad situation all around, but if you don't want it mentioned on this board I'll try to refrain from bring it back up. I would much rather just discuss Knight Rider, but sometimes you see wrong stuff and you wonder why MORE people don't speak up...

[Michael Pajaro]

Calling the Foundation "pathetic" or pointing out the number of replies in a thread has nothing to do with the recasting issue. It's just looking to create problems. To their credit, no one from the Foundation took the bait by coming over here and fighting back with more name-calling.

I think most members of Knight Rider Online would agree with me that we would rather this not be a place for people to complain about other sites.

[RafaelLOJ]

No one said "pathetic", but I did post about thread counting, and I apologized.

To the "Foundation's credit" ?

Locking / Erasing threads and banning members that post views they do not agree with...
To my credit, all my posts at the Foundation & other sites were civil & polite, no name calling...
That started after they erased & locked threads, changed their rules and banned me.
The reason I posted about the Foundation was out of frustration....

Spyhunter2k wrote very eloquently about the main issue at hand... the recasting...
The silence from Maroco & the Foundation...

Not many members of this board have spoken whether they would like this to be a "place to complain about other boards"... If we can keep it civil, as Spyhunter2k did, why not? Ultimately, it is your board... I hope it stays open.
The Foundation is not the main issue, but a part of this. This is also, just 1 of other threads on this board...

This thread has been viewed over 3000 times... people are interested...

Let them speak... if they wish...

No one can speak at the Foundation about it...

[Michael Pajaro]

Sorry Rafael, but yes the word pathetic WAS used. Twice.

"...a pretty pathetic attempt to cover themselves...."
"...I don't know of any other word than "pathetic.""

I don't consider that to be talking about the main issue "eloquently", nor would I call it "civil".

The internet is a big place. There are plenty of sites/services where you can (and already have) express your frustration with the Foundation. I'm asking you not to include KRO.

[spyhunter2k]

I think I was the one who used the word "pathetic" in expressing my opinion, not of the overall board itself, but of a replica board's specific actions of first banning a member, and then a moderator buying from a recaster that copied the banned member's work immediately after the board revises their definition of a recaster. I'm sorry, I just didn't know what else to call that type of brazen conduct.

I understand your not wanting this board to be used to highlight the bad conduct of another. But the cool thing about this board is that it isn't specifically associated with one replica board or one replica parts maker, which gives it a very needed sense of neutrality and fairness.

I think you give too much credit for folks not coming here to respond. Sure, sometimes folks don't respond because an allegation is untrue and they are taking the high road. But sometimes folks don't respond because what's being said is obviously and inconveniently true and so there is no legitimate response to be made. In addition, unlike their own board where they have full control over deleting posts and banning members in order to hide situations like this from seeing the light of day or being openly discussed, they know that they can't do that here, so they hunker down and hope the thread just goes away... Just please realize that those are equally valid possibilities as to why they don't respond.

Btw, I've said all I need to say on this anyway. If someone can't draw their own accurate conclusion based on what's already been said in the thread above, then no amount of evidence or logic can persuade them, and I wish them well.

[RafaelLOJ]

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

Here is a little video demo...
1st pic is Marco's bumper...
2nd is Billy's....

Be sure to CLICK on the Picture below... to see the video of the TRANSFORMATION....
Well, not really much changes, the nose stays the same, but the background REALLY CHANGES....