Did We As Fans Make This Bed?

[Matthew]

Hi guys,

As you know, we’ve all been through the ringer over the last few months, and now that things have calmed down a bit, I’ve found myself unable to shake this funny feeling that perhaps we, the Knight Rider community, are at least partially responsible for where we find ourselves today.

Back in February, I remember the issues that were raised about the backdoor pilot not living up to what was established in the original series, like the Knight 3000’s iPhone inspired dashboard being incomparable to the technological hub that was used in the Knight 2000, and how things had to change for the series to be successful.

Fast forward almost a year, and it seems to me that we’ve come full circle, with a sizable portion of the fandom wanting a return to what a series based on the David Andron produced pilot would have given us, with some people even clamoring for the iPhone inspired dashboard to return in place of the touch-screen hub that has been employed since A Knight in Shining Armor.

Having witnessed this wholesale turnaround, it’s left me with the inescapable conclusion that in our hasty desire to criticize everything that felt alien to us, we ultimately lost sight of what was truly important, and as a result, we’ve lost out in the worst way possible, with things like KITT’s green screen intensive technological hub coming at the cost of the action orientated set pieces that made the pilot such an enjoyable experience for everyone that tuned in.

Matt

[neps]

I agree with this completely on some levels. If we hadn't had the writers strike, the pilot in February would have been a different movie. It may not have had a Turbo Boost, but it may have had better dialog and more action. A part of me feels that if the pilot had more action and a Turbo Boost that all the fans would have wanted Andron to stay in charge. But the fact of the matter is NBC would not give someone with with little series experience control of an entire series.

Our dislike of the series didn't necessarily bring GST to the project - cause DutchOven needed him in order for NBC to bring it to series. But I do think that our general lack of focus on the right things might have contributed to the overall perception of what was wrong with the pilot.

[PHOENIXZERO]

Don't forget the budget issues. But really, how much has changed? If anything, instead of finding a happy medium, they went from one extreme to another and really disregarded a lot of what we were saying.

I dunno, while we could excuse at least some of the pilots shortcomings on the strike or NBC's budget restrictions, at least with the former, that's no longer an excuse. We complained about the lack of action but how much has that really changed outside of an episode or two? I don't think we wanted non-stop action, just something other than the monotony of what felt like half of the TV movie being filmed inside KITT while driving and nothing else really going on. We get a first episode that basically pushing eighty minutes of stuff into 40, making for a big jumbled mess with horrible pacing and terrible dialog that felt even more rushed than the pilot.

Then there was the lack of the original KITT's old tricks/stunts (aside from driving) and while we've had some in the new series, there hasn't been a whole lot of it in this new show either and in the way they've been done it feels more like they were put in to throw us a bone and shut us up more than anything. What happened to the car being jumped so much that we'd get sick of it? There has been only one true Turbo Boost as I'm not counting the trajectory launch, as CGIrific as it was but then the shot it with it not only going in slow motion but Mike and KITT able to have a conversation during it as well, as if the car didn't jump, but floated over the minivan that was far enough away in the first place that Mike could have easily driven around it. I didn't hear anyone complain about the remote controlled car they used in the pilot, people I thought liked that, what happened to it? Or even the live action interior shots they did with the stunt driver in a cage on the roof?

Certain people complained A LOT about the "sex" in the pilot, what did they do? They amped up the sex and T&A aspect, doing the exact opposite of what a lot of people were complaining about. The only thing is that they flat out dropped anything about Carrie's sexual preference which in and of itself did get a lot of complaints but it was only part of it. That in and of itself has turned off a lot of people, especially parents. Even I, someone who was telling everyone complaining about it to stop being so uptight and to loosen up got sick of it by the overloading of it all in I Wanna Rock and Roll All Knight.

There were plenty of complaints from even before it aired (especially from me) regarding the Ford involvement, product placement and flat out shooting the car like it was a Ford commercial. When the series was picked up we even heard that Ford thought it was too much. Yet now here we are with eight episodes and while I don't think it's as bad as it was in the pilot but it's still rather over the top to where it's not that much better, maybe even worse since at least in the pilot KITT just turned into other Mustangs and color and not Ford's entire (exaggerating, I know) product line, we're still getting it bashed over our heads, or at least mine. Times have changed but damn, do they know what subtly is? That kind of advertising does not make people want to go out and buy products. Look at that annoying Head-On commercial for example, hell they even made fun of how terrible it was in follow up commercials. I don't mind the transformations, even with as over the top ridiculous they look but that doesn't mean that I can stand how it's really being used for the most part.. Why does KITT only turn into brand new shiny Ford products other than the obvious reasons?

We complained about the interior and how stock it was, but now it's even more stock than it was in the pilot. We just now have the snow globe and the HUD to try and distract us from how painfully boring the interior is. I like the HUD but it's not something that is nearly as attention grabbing as modifying the interior would be in making it look not only more exciting but actually exist, the buttons or whatever might not actually do anything but they're there and you can actually see them without having to look at a TV screen. The HUD? We all know it's 100% fake. The new KITT in that form is never going to be the icon that the KITTed out Trans-Am was. In the end, we or at least I don't see KITT, I see a Mustang with a snow globe inside it.

I don't recall anyone wishing there was a big, expensive set that could be dubbed the "KITT Cave", in fact I'm pretty sure that a lot of us here were like "WTF?!" When we first read about it and some still do. There were complaints about the Attack Mode and while they changed it, they went into a route that was clearly influenced by GST and again designed by the over so overrated Harald Belker who I know I at least did quite a bit of bitching about. The new Attack Mode again, is an extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to the old one. Where the old one didn't differentiate all that much from the regular mode, the new one is way over the top and for some unexplainable reason, takes up the backseat. I like the shielding under the car and I don't even mind the blue neons, but the "KR" underneath? Come on... Then there's the Cobra, I was fine with it at first even though I knew the real purpose of it was to integrate Shelby Cobra emblem into a bigger role by putting into the story that it was the Knight Research logo, but really? They went way too over the top.

Basically, the long and short of it is that I think they still totally disregarded a lot of what we said and continued to take a "doing it our way" approach that has been taken so many franchises/adaptations over the years and totally bombed. Instead of looking back to the source material for inspiration and respecting it, they wanted to put their own spin on things and do it, their way while repeatedly saying how this was a continuation. The pilot was clearly guilty of the same thing but no where like the show has been. We didn't demand the terrible writing and horrible execution of the first nine episodes (yes, counting Knight Fever too) Having seen the failure now of the first nine episodes in how they turned out and the direction it was going, NOW they apparently went back and might be taking this in the direction they should have in the first place, but if it still fails they can blame this third change in direction in trying to realign it with the original series on it too. Or better yet, they might blame us with saying they wanted to give us what we wanted but we weren't ever happy, which isn't true. I think a lot of us wouldn't have minded at all with the direction and government involvement with how it was in the initial nine IF it were written better and didn't rely so much on being cheap. I gave Andron a lot of crap over his interviews but even I in the end have to admit that A Hard Day's Knight was probably the best written episode of the bunch and had some half way decent action for what little there was. It wasn't great either, but compared to the rest, it was the best IMO. GST's second episode, Knight of the Living Dead wasn't bad either, until near the end with the KARR details which deflated a lot of excitement out of things. Speaking of KARR, who wanted KARR (if this is the original KARR) back in the way they're going about it by making him a evil GoBot? Is it going to be written in a way that makes sense or is a good story? Or in a fashion that totally ignores history of this supposed continuation and that for some reason there's a new KARR where Charles made the same mistake again?

Who wanted Charles gone? I don't recall any of us complaining about Bruce Davidson or Charles Graiman other than inserting the character into the original series mythology in the way they did. They never addressed the issues of Mike being the son of Michael Knight in a manner to make it seem like Michael wasn't a boarder line deadbeat father who knew he had a son but none of us did because it all took place off camera, I still think it would have been better if he hadn't known about Mike until after the series ended. I like Deanna, I like Justin, hell I like Paul and Smith too and why their characters initially bugged the hell out of me, I grew to like them a lot more than I did at first. I don't mind Mike's immaturity either, let's face it the character is in his mid-20s and even though war should have hardened and matured him, he shouldn't have to be the 30 year old (if somewhat irresponsible manslut) grown up that Michael Knight was.. It's the writer's immaturity that was a problem along the juvenile writing that's the real issue.

Overall though, no I don't think this is the bed we made for ourselves, quite the opposite, NBC/Ford/GST made this bed. I think at least in some regards we were clear with what we wanted and NBC/GST (with Ford influence) either failed to deliver or ignored us and only threw us a few crumbs here and there trying to appease and distract us as a way to shut us up. It was never truly about satisfying the show's fanbase, it was about doing things how they wanted and how they interpreted Knight Rider. We didn't write the scripts, we didn't direct the actors, we didn't decide how to shoot scenes, we didn't ask for a base of operations that was "borrowed" from Batman and/or Viper, we had no true say in the direction of the series. They did what they thought would be the right way to take it and while the big brother aspect of it would have worked to an extent, they totally botched it. I still find it hard to believe that GST watched the first season of Knight Rider before writing his first episode or even the pilot and it seems like the writers didn't watch anything except popular movies that have come out in the last few years. You know what they say about how one who ignores history is doomed to repeat it? Well, IMO that's exactly what they've done so far.

I have to hand it to Neil and Mike for their professionalism in their interviews because if it were me, I think it would have ended with GST likely putting me on his list of people to avoid. All my complaints, everything negative or positive (and there ARE some positives) I've said about this show isn't done to hurt it or eagerly anticipate its cancellation, it's because I "love" Knight Rider and I want this show to stick around, have a chance to flourish into something that could finally stand next to the original series as well as on its own, even exceeding the original and there's no good reason why it shouldn't, it's just being held back. It's painfully frustrating with how its been handled and the damage it may cost, not only to further damage the Knight Rider name but potentially the careers of the cast. I hope that episode ten and onward there's a big turn around and I'll continue to hold out hope that they finally DO get it that there is a chance for a ratings turn around until we've actually seen the end product and results. I think NBC needs to remember that a lot of shows suffer from lackluster first seasons and that it takes time to build an audience, the idea of every show needing to be a sure fire hit right away is short sighted and terrible. Because it's those "sure fire hits" that eventually fizzle out by the second season, kind of like Heroes and the mess they're in now. If it still fails then I'll begrudgingly and bitterly throw it on the pile with the other failed attempts at bringing Knight Rider back. I'll remember what I liked about it, give praise for it and curse all that I didn't.

I hope they make the most out of those seven episodes and NBC better promote the hell out of it because it's not like they have much else now that this is pretty much the only new show they have left. It's your own property NBCU, start giving a damn about it!

[Mr.Marcus]

We had little to do with it. Ben Silverman stated himself that NBC and Ford had partnered together and Knight Rider was the perfect way to showcase a Ford product. Which means Ford's interests have a greater claim to the series than any creative input. GST was brought in to try and appease the fans without going too far creatively to jeopardize the Ford/NBC partnership. I have a feeling GST wanted to do more to make the series in line with the original and NBC suits didn't want to. From the start this was all about the Ford and NBC agreement.

The reason KITT doesn't have a fully decked out futuristic dash is not b/c of some botched creative decision. It had to do with the fact that it would dilute Ford's product. That's why a nonsensical approach of KITT having the stock retro Mustang gauges was combined with a CG windshield. Just like the episode of the environmentally friendly KITT just happened to showcase the 2010 Mustang. These are all examples of the Ford deal taking precedence of any creative decision making.

IMO, GST tried to do his best to give this series a feeling of legitimacy. But the scanner sound can't hide the fact that this series prime directive was to showcase Ford products like the Mustang and F150.

[PHOENIXZERO]

True, we can't nor shouldn't lay all or even most of the blame at the feet of GST, at the end of the day he is still at the mercy of NBC and Ford and their demands. Though, it still I dunno if that can excuse some of the lackluster writing. I mean we all know KR isn't Shakespeare but the writers should still be striving for excellence, not mediocrity or worse.

[Mr.Marcus]

True, we can't nor shouldn't lay all or even most of the blame at the feet of GST, at the end of the day he is still at the mercy of NBC and Ford and their demands. Though, it still I dunno if that can excuse some of the lackluster writing. I mean we all know KR isn't Shakespeare but the writers should still be striving for excellence, not mediocrity or worse.

Or did they do their jobs and NBC said no anyway? I can't help but think of the cut flashback scenes when Michael was drugged. The official reason was that they were too dark but I think NBC didn't want the show to get too weighed down with story telling and wanted to keep it light.

[Shapeshifter]

You make a lot of interesting (and heartfelt) points, Phoenixzero. But I think that something that gets lost in all this is how these shows are put together. The producers are not interacting with the fans everyday. Perhaps they should, but they're not. They're interacting with the studio, network, cast and crew. And as such, their creative gets constantly influenced by what is possible and doable, rather than what is desirable.

You want more action. That's understandable. I can tell you, there was more action in a number of the scripts submitted to the network. But the network is telling them "you can't afford to do that", so it gets cut at the script stage. Everything is a compromise, and this crew has constraints that the crew in the 80's crew never had to face. These guys can't wreck a car. So, the live action is compromised. There's more green screen, because it's affordable. You want to go darker with the story, but the studio wants to keep it light. It's creative by committee, and unfortunately, none of us are on that committee.

So, they simply can't make the show that you remember from a practical standpoint. But now it gets into an area where I agree with you. If you can't have good action, you've simply got to have better written characters and story. the modern audience will forgive a lot if they believe in the characters. If they don't, as is the case here, the audience won't forgive anything.

Maybe this is just a show that can't be done justice to today. I'm willing to entertain that notion.

[My_Friend_KITT]

We all know, especially recently, that many of the viewers of this forum have been involved in the production of the show somehow.
In that case, they have seen most of our likes and dislikes of all the episodes since Knight in Shining Amour.
They know that we want turbo boost. They knew from the pool scene that people were already getting tired of T&A.
They knew that we wanted better writing as of Knight of the Iguana.

So for me I am going to enjoy the last of my Knight Rider and try to share my like of it with others and hope that the new set-up is even better than the first.

[KnightINSTINCT]

The show is dead after this season. It's too bad, really, because some of the eps had some great stories. I think they could have done a little better on the focus of which ever story that was going on in the eps, instead of wasting ten minutes out of every show to warm us up to the other characters and their story. Whatever. To each is own.


Just for the hell of it, my biggest gripes...again:

no voice effects for KITT ( he sounded like a normal overdub )
lack of real time driving

[PHOENIXZERO]

That's true and really, those flashbacks weren't all that dark anyway. NBC seems to completely miss the point as to why Bionic Woman failed. It being "dark" had little to do with it, a show can be dark and still be fun. There's nothing wrong with storytelling as long as the storytelling is good simple story telling is fine but no real story is worse. As long as they don't go and pull a Heroes and make things overly complicated. Something else that IMO, Bionic Woman failed at, I know of some of the behind the scenes issues but still. There's no reason that Knight Rider could have some good story, be a little dark and still be fun with occasional light moments. It's just one of those things that NBC IMO took the BW failures in a totally wrong way. Doesn't help that IMO the "girl power" fad died out several years ago.

Shapeshifter, I'm not one of those that are all about the action, all the action in the world is not going to save a crappy script. I totally agree that if the characters the stories around them are written better than the lack of action is fine, it's understandable that there are budget limitations especially these days. I do think there's too much reliance on green screen but I understand why they do it. Perhaps NBC should invest more into the show that is a property that they actually own, perhaps with the cut down of the cast, NBC instead of taking that money back is letting the crew keep it to reallocate it. Mindless action only serves as a distraction from a script's shortcomings, much like how IMO the generally pointless T&A and sex has been doing on the show, action for the sake of action is certainly not the way to go. The action has to make sense and work within the story, not the other way around. Look at The Dark Knight, Chris Nolan had a 180M budget and could have thrown all of that into being non-stop action movie filled with CGI instead of what it was and is might have even turned a profit still. IMO the action was really secondary to the characters and the story that was being told. If there anything the writers should learn from that movie it's that. Make people care about the characters! I think that was one issue with A Hard Day's Knight that I did have, that was a type of story that was written way too soon, look we all know that at the end of the day that the good guys will probably win, the lead actor will probably not die. But the audience has to at least get attached and care about the characters before even attempting to do anything that puts them in that kind of jeopardy.

I also certainly do not want a rehash of the original series though, I do feel that for the writers to truly go forward, they need to look back and see what worked. That's the same with TV show based on something else or a movie. It's not surprising that some of the most successful adaptations have been those that while maybe not totally accurate, remained faithful to the source (and reason why the adaptation is being made in the first place) and maintained the spirit of it. You need to take what people loved about something and be careful not to corrupt that. There's a good reason why Superman Returns underperformed at the box office and The Dark Knight is now the second highest grossing film in domestic box office history and it has little to nothing to do with people thinking Superman is a "boring" character or that Batman was dark and dark is in or that idiotic notion that Heath Ledger's death is responsible.

No, it's because at the end of the day, in one film or well two, the director and the writers retained much of spirit of the characters, respected the source material and made a movie that remains faithful to and was inspired by that source by writers and a director as well as the actors that understood the characters and made a movie that could be considered a tribute to those characters that are from said source..

In the other, the director and writers flat out ignored the source, clearly not truly getting the characters and instead making a tribute to those characters, focuses on doing it their way, altering the characters with terrible writing with the lead doing his best Christopher Reeve impression while barely having any lines. Singer attempted, instead of honoring the characters, made a tribute to a nearly 30 year old classic that has little barring on those characters as they have been presented over the last 20+ years, in some mishmash where Superman leaves for five years, Lois had a kid (apparently also given the date rape treatment) that Superman didn't know of, in a movie that wasn't exactly a remake (but lifted several elements from the first Donner film) but some pseudo continuation of the second movie and completely failed at bringing back Superman in a successful manner to the big screen. Despite its having a budget greater than The Dark Knight's that was used to make it look good while totally ignoring what made Superman work for 70 years and Singer still doesn't seem to get it. Unfortunately, the idiots at WB still don't seem to get it either. Some of the elements of Superman Return's story could have worked even with keeping many of the elements but totally reworking the characters and making a story around some of these elements (including the being gone for five years and the kid) worthy of being Superman's Return that wasn't just a two plus hour assassination of Clark Kent/Superman. EDIT: You know, I could have probably just saved a lot of time and typing by saying that one tried to and focused on honoring the characters while the other tried to honor and focus on honoring a 30 year old film.

Anyway, I think the point I was trying to make was that money and budget isn't so much an issue when you can make up for it with good writing, unfortunately it seems like NBC did want to be light on story but for some reason also didn't want to put the money that would be required into actually allowing for the action to make up for the limited story. What happens is we get a show that's light on both instead of a balance, we get little of either. Personally, I'd rather have stronger writing with some excellently written, built up action that fits into the story and results in a satisfying climax.

[Knight94]

Yes, I believe there's a group of KR fans who crapped all over KR08, because it's not the original KR.
"We love the original, only the original will do!," is their attitude. They got a following, staged a protest if you will.
Granted, there've been some problems w/ KR08, but there're those who want it to succeed. But there're those
who made it clear KR08 should NOT get ANY chance whatsoever. I love the original, too, but I was also looking
forward to the new show. We should stop all the bickering n belly-achin, and give the show a chance.

[Sky_Blue_Civic]

The only thing that many of you will accept is the original.I mean of course we must have the main elements that TOS had,otherwise it wouldn't be Knight Rider.But it's a 21st. century audience,and this is 2008,not 1982.They have to make some changes to cater to a modern audience,or the show won't succeed.

We can't entirely blame GST and the cast and crew.They have a lot of restraints when it comes to creativity,time,and even budget.Even prices for basic necessities have gone up,so that means there is less things to spend the budget on.
Knight Rider was never Shakespere(which is obviously an overused term by now),and I know that many of you can agree with me on this.But I can agree with some of you who are complaining when it comes to the lack of KI3T's screen time(Knight of the Zodiac is an example).But at least do a few more Turbo Boosts.

I believe that GST is trying to improve the show,but I think he's going in the wrong direction sometimes.

The best thing us fans of Knight Rider can do is try to voice our opinions,and support the show.In a way,we can even blame the haters because they are partially to blame.Why?Because they are bashing the show and are "pitching in"to give the new series a bad name.By ranting,causing disharmony on KRO,and that's what is going to hurt KR as well.But I'm not saying being a constructive critic is bad.It will help KR,but you have to understand about those restraints.

Now,you can support Knight Rider by keeping it alive!Sign the petition.I did. Here's the link:http://www.gopetition.com/online/23816.html

[arhskr81]

I just signed the petition, #81, let's get more. To all the haters out stop acting like everybody hates the show cause not everybody does, I LOVE it, it takes me away from the REAL world for a while.